There's so many unknowns. . . Diesel is more easily synthesized from plants (biodiesel a better bet than ethanol); it is easier to refine from crude (if the refineries are working); it is more efficient within the engine itself; the engines last a lot longer in actual practice.
Despite the hybrid hype, I think they'll be long gone soon enough. Their real world mileage is much worse than claimed and they're only decent for slow, stop-and-go traffic. Unless a breakthrough in battery technology happens which allows pre-charging of your hybrid so that you get a few hundred miles before the gas engine even starts. I've done a fair bit of reading on these and the bottom line is: ALL HYPE.
I think this truck's got a shot, if they don't price it out of the stratosphere. Which they'll need to do (price it competitively) if they want to sell enough to drop their fleet average MPGs.
Hybrid isn't really all Hype something is going to have to happen at some point Gas Engines will be very phased out in the near future it's about expected. I do feel right now This Diesel Hype is a day too late for Toyota and People arn't going to buy these in large numbers like the Gas v8 Toyota provides. Currently The 2nd gen Tundra tow's a pretty good chuck of space and will sell. I doubt strongly people are going to buy these in such large number's esp with the cost assoicated with it. With the New Caft standard's coming out Toyota is going to have to go back to the drawing board's and rethink it's master plan which too some degee is done year's in advance.
another option is Active Fuel Management (formerly known as Displacement on Demand) is a trademarked name for the automobile variable displacement technology from General Motors. It allows a V6 or V8 engine to "turn off" half of the cylinders under light-load conditions to improve fuel economy. EPA tests show a 6% to 8% improvement in fuel economy.
GM's current Active Fuel Management technology uses a solenoid to deactivate the lifters on selected cylinders of a pushrod V-layout engine.
Last edited by Tundrav8yamaha; 05-31-2008 at 09:05 AM.
GM's AFM is a dissaster. Many engines are being worked on right now for lifter problems. In real life driving the AFM is useless.
It only kicks in when driving downhill or severely flat areas.
I test drove several of the GM twin trucks with the AFM and I couldn't get them to stay in the 4 cyl. mode for longer than 10 seconds. Some of them made a smooth transition to the 4 cyl mode and others were not as smooth.
That right there raised major red flag questions in my mind
This technology is nothing but an added issue that will cause engine problems down the road.
Chevy claims that with the AFM they are getting the best MPG's of any full size half ton.
If you look at all the reviews done by independant companies the Tundra actually gets the best real world mileage. The Tundra has the most HP and it gets the best MPG's.
I know Toyota V8 are pretty good on Mpg vs other's in this class but even still it's not all that very good . I was test driving a 2009 Honda pilot and Honda is using an engine very similar to Gm But without problems I am sure . If Honda can do this so can Toyota it's not rocket science honda calls there system Variable Cylinder Management™ (VCM
Keep in mind that there is a big push for diesel technology going on right now. Most of the many foreign auto makers are planning to bring diesels vehicles to the north american market in next year or so (BMW, Subaru etc) and the domestic auto makers will be offering diesels over a lot more of there model lineup. I suspect that the price difference between diesel and gas models will be shrinking in the next few years.
There's lots of additions to a current Tundra that would enhance the vehicle and make it appeal to the niche market. Toyota isn't playing that game. It's not particularly profitable.
If Toyota had a crew cab short box truck with 2500# payload, I would own one. They don't have a CCSB with even 1600# payload once it has fuel, lube and coolant, so it wan't even an option for me.
Toyota isn't going to build a work truck. Toyota does build the nicest truck with reasonable half ton capacity and a Lexus ride compared to what's on the market. A 2000# payload in a tacoma, or a 3000# payload in a Tundra would allow people to use it for work which would cause more wear and warranty claims, decreasing profits. While it's still fashionable to drive a truck or SUV you won't see truck manufacturers stretching the capacity of their trucks to compete. Lots of features and comfort, but performace to match the competition and not much beyond that. (Yes it's a 381hp engine. It can tow 10,000 lbs. Why does it have a 1600# cargo rating? Every farmer I know can tow 20,000lbs with their '83 350 chevy.)
Diesel mileage has gone way down and will continue in that direction to minimize the emissions from the tailpipe. Gas engines are burning cleaner and making more power per gallon. We will likely get back to a place where people who need a diesel will buy one. Those that don't need one will forgoe the fashion of the day and continue to drive gas because it's too expensive. Previously the smell, smoke and cold starting kept people away. Now it's going to be another reason.
I was thinking on the weekend, If you burn used fryer grease but produce high levels of NOX, is that more environmentally conscious than driving a camry that burns liquid dinosaurs but has almost no emissions? If you drive a hippy van from the '70s that has no emission controls, can you actually be a hippy or does mother earth beat you over the head with a falling fir tree to try and get you thinking straight?
Toyota makes a great light truck. When they take over the world I will burn my chevy and pledge aliegence to the brand. Till then, or the 1-ton diesel shows up, I've gotta pay the bills and run the bowtie.
Funny you should bring this up, I have friends that are running straight McDonalds cooking oil in their diesels with no refining. All you have to do is start the truck with the tank that has diesel in it and then switch over to the cooking oil tank once the engine is warm. He smells like McDonalds when his truck is idling outside, it s a trip, we call him the McDonalds truck!
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07 Tundra DC TRD 4WD 5.7L Desert Mica
There's lots of additions to a current Tundra that would enhance the vehicle and make it appeal to the niche market. Toyota isn't playing that game. It's not particularly profitable.
If Toyota had a crew cab short box truck with 2500# payload, I would own one. They don't have a CCSB with even 1600# payload once it has fuel, lube and coolant, so it wan't even an option for me.
Toyota isn't going to build a work truck. Toyota does build the nicest truck with reasonable half ton capacity and a Lexus ride compared to what's on the market. A 2000# payload in a tacoma, or a 3000# payload in a Tundra would allow people to use it for work which would cause more wear and warranty claims, decreasing profits. While it's still fashionable to drive a truck or SUV you won't see truck manufacturers stretching the capacity of their trucks to compete. Lots of features and comfort, but performace to match the competition and not much beyond that. (Yes it's a 381hp engine. It can tow 10,000 lbs. Why does it have a 1600# cargo rating? Every farmer I know can tow 20,000lbs with their '83 350 chevy.)
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There is one reason the payload is only 1600 or less it's because of GVW is set at 7000 lbs or 7200 lbs in many states and by the EPA . A truck with a higher GVW then that is classed as a commercial vehicle by many states and the EPA and other gov departments and then you pay a lot more to reg and insure them unlike in Alberta where you chose whether or not to . So all manufactures of trucks have the GVW set there so they have a truck to compete in the largest market witch is the 1/2 ton truck .
The way I see it in the future the truck market will shrink and split even more then now . trucks with a GVW under 7000lbs will become unibody Crew cabs to be able to meet the CAFE laws witch only apply to them . For a lot of people those trucks will be fine as they will drive nice still have 1500 lbs of payload and have a v8 available for the guys who what or need all the power of the heavier trucks .
Then there will be light duty 3/4 tons trucks with a GVW of more then 7500 LBS witch will be more like the current 1/2 tons to keep there curb weight down and make them more fuel efficient because of raising fuel costs . Rather then single wheel 1 tons with a 3/4 ton badge as they are now . those who have even larger trailers or need to haul lots there will still 1 Tons and larger trucks for the working crowd .
As a result of the truck market shrinking Toyota will start to make trucks in other categories to keep the factories running at or near capacity .
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Double cab long box 4x4 5.7 L slate grey . would have bought a limited if available with long box
As one who used to have a Dodge Ram diesel, I would love to have a Tundra diesel. With the last Ram I had (2002 2500 QC 4x4 long bed with fiberglass cap and 54 gallon replacement tank), I averaged 17mpg highway, the same as I get on my Tundra, not bad for a 7200 pound truck. I would still have a Ram diesel if my wife could step that high, but two knee replacements prevent that even with a step. As for numbers, here are some factors to consider:
engine cost difference
per gallon fuel cost difference
mileage difference
maintenance cost difference
Let's address these one at a time
engine cost difference:
It is almost a guarantee that the 4.5L diesel will cost more than the 5.7 gas. However, as other have mentioned, it is very unlikely the engine for a 1/2 ton truck will have the same premium as that for a 1 ton truck. A $3000-4000 price difference seems reasonable to me. Though this is an added up front cost, it is not all a lost expense, as compared with a fuel cost difference. The diesel engine has an increased residual value. The difference between this residual value and the initial cost is the actual non-recouped expense. This is the expense amount that needs to be spread over the life of the vehicle (until sold or replaced). The initial engine cost would only be spread over the life of the vehicle if the vehicle is kept for its entire life. Also, diesel engines are likely to last longer than gas engines. At a 100,000 miles, the Cummins is barely broken in. This increases the 'life' of the truck to spread the cost over if keeping it for its entire life.
per gallon fuel cost:
The cost of my last fill-up was $4.06 for regular. Diesel at the same station was $4.80. This has diesel at an 18% higher cost than regular. In this comparison, the important number (for comparison purposes) is the percentage difference. For example, if regular was $4.26 instead, the difference would be about 13%, though the diesel cost was the same. If you can fill up at a truck stop, this percentage difference could be reduced.
mileage difference:
If I baby my Tundra, I can get 19.2 mpg highway. I normally don't baby it. My highway mileage is closer to 17 mpg. If the mileage of the diesel was 22 mpg, this would result in me getting 29% better mileage with the diesel engine than with a gas engine.
maintenance cost difference:
It will like cost more for oil changes on the diesel. The actual amount can vary greatly. Depending on where it was changed in the Ram I had, it varied from a low of $65 (in Alabama) to a high of $120 (near Chicago). Of course, you can control the cost somewhat by doing it yourself.
conclusion:
Looking at just the difference in per gallon cost or figuring in the entire engine cost as an extra cost is insufficient. Doing this would be looking at only the negatives and ignoring the positives. There are two sides to the equation. Look at both.
Compare the per gallon fuel cost percentage difference with the mileage percentage difference. The overall fuel cost is a combination of both of these percentages. For the example numbers above, the 29% mileage increase more than offsets the 18% per gallon fuel cost increase. As long as the mileage difference for the diesel is greater than the per gallon fuel cost difference for diesel, it will be less expensive to fuel a diesel engine than to fuel a gas engine. As fuel costs rise even further, these percentages are a key factor in evaluating the benefits of diesel versus gas.
But, to see how this fits an individual's circumstances, this difference needs to be compared with your other factors, like the engine cost (initial - residual) over the useful life (or until sold), and your cost of maintenance. These other costs vary from region to region and from dealer to dealer. The more important numbers are still the mileage increase percentage versus the higher fuel cost percentage.
As for me, unless the percentages flip, I will continue to prefer diesel to gas. It may cost more to fill the tank, especially with the 54 gallon replacement tank the Ram had, but the extra range more than made up the difference. I expect a diesel Tundra to have a similar upside.
Tim - Great post man - excellent summary of all the big points.
The longevity issue is a great benefit - diesel engines are expected to last twice as long as gas, and with a Toyota that could mean 350-400k miles. That alone makes the extra $3-4k up front seem much more reasonable. But, of course, how many users will keep the truck that long?
Even if you don't keep the truck, the resale value will definitely be better. It's safe to say you're going to get a big chunk of the upfront back when you trade or sell.
Finally, and I think most importantly, the final mpg numbers are still up in the air. When the CA version of the 08 Landcruiser debuts with the diesel, we'll finally have a decent estimate of fuel economy (assuming the Tundra's diesel is similar).
I'm still excited - it's great to have a diesel coming.
Tim - Great post man - excellent summary of all the big points.
The longevity issue is a great benefit - diesel engines are expected to last twice as long as gas, and with a Toyota that could mean 350-400k miles. That alone makes the extra $3-4k up front seem much more reasonable. But, of course, how many users will keep the truck that long?
Even if you don't keep the truck, the resale value will definitely be better. It's safe to say you're going to get a big chunk of the upfront back when you trade or sell.
Finally, and I think most importantly, the final mpg numbers are still up in the air. When the CA version of the 08 Landcruiser debuts with the diesel, we'll finally have a decent estimate of fuel economy (assuming the Tundra's diesel is similar).
I'm still excited - it's great to have a diesel coming.
Look's like Toyota is going to delay the Introduction on the Diesel with the cost involved Toyota made a choice on the madder Source = SA News Texas Business | MySanAntonio.com " But slow truck sales and diesel prices of well more than $4 a gallon have prompted Toyota to put off plans for North American passenger diesel. Plans for E85 trucks, however, are on track."
I would run, screaming and kicking, from an E-85 vehicle. But having owned a diesel before, and been happy with it's performance and costs, I would seriously consider diesel even if costs were higher.
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Funny you should bring this up, I have friends that are running straight McDonalds cooking oil in their diesels with no refining. All you have to do is start the truck with the tank that has diesel in it and then switch over to the cooking oil tank once the engine is warm. He smells like McDonalds when his truck is idling outside, it s a trip, we call him the McDonalds truck!
I seen that on Tv once these guys ran a van with diesel in it then when the engine warms up they switch to cooking oil I thought it was kind of cool. They went on a long road trip by goign to restaruts and pleading for cooking oil I think one resturant made them work for it it was quiet funny espically sense most resturants pay for companys to take the cooking oil away.
Tim," If the mileage of the diesel was 22 mpg" What was your non babying mileage on the Ram?
My friends with GM & Ford Diesels do not get 22 MPG keeping up with a Tundra. They are in the mid to hi teens also. Is the ram much better?
The 22 mpg figure was from the linked article about the Tundra diesel. My non-babying mileage on the Ram was 17 mpg (mostly highway). Being a 3/4 ton instead of a 1/2 ton and with the loaded 54 gallon replacement tank, the Ram probably weighed about 1,200 to 1,400 pounds more then my Tundra. My mileage on the Tundra could increase a little from 17 mpg as I get the engine broke in more. It has less than 3,000 miles on it now.
Tim - Great post man - excellent summary of all the big points.
The longevity issue is a great benefit - diesel engines are expected to last twice as long as gas, and with a Toyota that could mean 350-400k miles. That alone makes the extra $3-4k up front seem much more reasonable. But, of course, how many users will keep the truck that long?
Thanks. I'm a TDR (Turbo Diesel Register) member and it is amazing to see the miles put on some of those trucks, especially those being worked hard hauling huge fivers and such. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing more diesel choices on the market.
Re: 4.5L Diesel on 2010 Tundra
. Currently The 2nd gen Tundra tow's a pretty good chuck of space and will sell. I doubt strongly people are going to buy these in such large number's esp with the cost assoicated with it. With the New Caft standard's coming out Toyota is going to have to go back to the drawing board's and rethink it's master plan which too some degee is done year's in advance.
. If Honda can do this so can Toyota it's not rocket science 
. They went on a long road trip by goign to restaruts and pleading for cooking oil I think one resturant made them work for it it was quiet funny
espically sense most resturants pay for companys to take the cooking oil away.
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