From all I've read and heard synthetic motor oils (Like Mobil 1) are better for your engine and improve engine performance. I also read of a person taking his own synthetic oil when he had his scheduled changes since the first four are free. Does anyone here use synthetic oil in their Yaris? If so how does it effect you performance and mileage, and does your Toyota service rep. do your changes?
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sedanman
Time is a wonderful teacher, but it kills all its students.
Mobil 1 is fine,There many discussion of synthetic all over this forum and the Web. If I'm correct 5w20 is the spec'ed oil. Stay with this grade for fuel economy. It is not a common grade found all over yet.Give it a year and it will be as common as 5w30 is now(found even in supermarkets).
I would allow Non-Synthetic for the breakin.(first 3-5 k miles) I would dump O/E fill oil/filter at 500-1000 miles. Then use one more Non Syn. fill.
By 5k miles Mobil 1 is good. then continue your 5k intervals with Mobil 1.
Just my slant on this. Been doing this for all my cars including my last 9 Toyotas.
The first early miles of the O/E oil is the most contaminated and really overburdens the Filter. That's why I dump it early. But yu still want Regular dino oil for at least 3k miles in my opinion.
The rings seat for the first 500 miles...but the valvetrain and main bearings etc. continue to breakin through at least 3,00 miles.
Best fuel economy occurs after that, but varies on the engine and driving habits and conditions.
The characteristics/adavantages of Synthetic oil come into play after breakin. Some use Synthetic from the get go. Not a great issue for or con.
But I feel strongly that any FULL Synthetic Oil prolongs the breakin process.
There is much debate on this read up. Some will even say wait til 30k miles.
LifeTech, I was wondering what you base your opinion on, in regard to not using synthetic before the first 5,000 miles. Many cars come from the factory with synthetic oil. In my 2007 Yaris HB, I dumped the factory fill at around 1,500 miles, then poured in Mobil1 0W-20.
As to MPG, if you take the best oil and the worst oil and run them in a car, there will be little or no difference in MPG, and perhaps 1% or less. This issue has been debated countless times on countless forums and nobody has shown a noticably increase in MPG between dino and the best synthetics, when using hightly controlled scientific testing.
I run synthetic oil in my Yaris, but not necessarily for better MPG....I want engine longevity, smoother running engine, that sort of thing.
I dumped the factory oil at 3,000 miles and put in Mobil 1 5w-30. Our dealership offers free oil changes so I just take the car in with a jug of 5w-30 and leave it in the car for the tech. I decided to go with the synthetic for both the fuel economy advantages but also wanted the car to see 200k without any problems. I have the oil changed every 5,000 miles.
__________________ Ryan
2007 Toyota Yaris Base Sedan 5 speed, 51k miles
1997 Toyota 4Runner SR5 V6, 5 speed, Old Man Emu 881 front coils w/ N91 shocks, Old Man Emu 891 rear coils w/ Old Man Emu N86 shocks, 285/75/R16 Nitto Terra Grappler AT's, 1998 Toyota Land Cruiser wheels, LockRite locker in rear axle, TJM-17 front bumper, Deckplate mod, K&N air filter, Alpine CDA-9883, Scan Gauge 2, Cobra WX75ST cb radio, Yaesu FT-7800 ham radio, 168k miles
True, one could use just conventional and get a zillion miles out of their engine with no problems. The conventional oils of today are great and lightyears better then conventional just 10 years ago. The gap in protection between conventional and synthetic has greatly narrowed. I use synthetic for it's better flow properties, and better protection at start up, but once the oil is up to optimum operational temperature, the synthetic probably does not protect any better then conventional, except maybe if the engine is running in an over-heated state. As to better MPG, using synthetic will increase it in a very, very small amount. If the dealer is offering free oil changes, then it would be wasteful to buy your own and leave it with the tech....the difference in MPG is way, way too slight, and therefore this is a waste of your hard earned money.
M1 is not "chemist jargon" synthetic, just a marketing term "synthetic" and does NOTHING GOOD for you in moderate climates. The much touted (by mobil) PAO base is an inferior lubricant at high temp. M1-EP is synth but who knows what's in it. If Di-Ester polar molecules are not employed at 10% or better blend, then forget it and stick with DINO oil. Molecular diversity is actually GOOD for lubrication in moderate climes (long chain for journal hydrodynamic and short chain naptha derivatives for piston skirt and ring pack and valvestem boundary lube. The problem is API-SM oils are "crap" compared to most Manufacturer spec European LL oils, mainly through moderation of boundary and dry lube metal salts in the addpack (due to "early" poisoning of catalyst and afterburner honeycomb). Only proven good synthetic are Motul 300V and ELF Excellium and Fuchs. Then there is Redline and I am unaware of its constituents - your research on this one. As a lower cost alternative, please take at look at Superbike motorcycle high specification oils - some of these should be adequate (meaning better than SM API). Check out site like kneedragger.com
Last edited by grumpy in NH; 06-25-2008 at 05:35 PM.
Reason: content grammer SP
The conventional oils of today are great and lightyears better then conventional just 10 years ago. I use synthetic for it's better flow properties, and better protection at start up .
The 1977 Toyota owners manual says: "Use 20-40 or 20-50 weight if normal temperatures are above 10 degrees F." In other words, even extra thick 20-40 and 20-50 CONVENTIONAL oils provide sufficient protection to prevent significant start up wear at temperatures above 10 degrees F. And since todays conventional oils are thin 5W-20 oils, start up wear is even less of a
potential issue, especially in mild winter climates like Los Angeles where you live.
The "better flow properties" of synthetics are marginal. Example: A 5W-20 conventional oil at zero degrees F will actually flow slightly faster than a 10W-30 full synthetic. This is easily demonstrated by putting samples of each in your home freezer.
In the end, owners in mild climates who use synthetics are choosing them for emotional reasons. None of these synthetic using owners can provide even one case history example of a Toyota engine operated in a mild climate that suffered heavy piston ring, bearing or camshaft wear, loss of compression, sludge, etc. when lubed by a conventional oil that was changed every 3-6 months or 3000-5000 miles.
However, there have been a few Toyota engines (e.g. the 22R series engines) that suffered timing chain mechanism wear before the 500,000 mile mark even if the owner changed the oil every 3000 miles. But in those cases, the owners who used synthetics had the same wear problem at the same odometer mileage as the owners who used conventional oils.
Every (and I mean every) early engine failure I have ever been made aware of or have personally worked on as a master tech and engine builder has employed API grade synthetic oil. CAUTION this experience or coincidence is not statistic relevant One of these was an 80's vintage Toyota Camry with a galled oil pump plate at 147K miles. Well at least it was an easy fix. Others were multiple cadillac northstar and 4100 and 4500 failures - but lets not go THERE. Another anecdote into evidence is my cubicle-mates 82 v6 ranger with 366K miles all on valvoline 10-30 with oil changed every 3-5K miles and all engine performance issues addressed in a timely manner. No Oil burnt here. Oh yeah they dumped a ton of Zinc phosphates in the oil back then! How can his catalyst still be working??? Oh he just informs it might be time for renew timing chain for #1st time.
Last edited by grumpy in NH; 06-25-2008 at 05:48 PM.
The 1977 Toyota owners manual says: "Use 20-40 or 20-50 weight if normal temperatures are above 10 degrees F." In other words, even extra thick 20-40 and 20-50 CONVENTIONAL oils provide sufficient protection to prevent significant start up wear at temperatures above 10 degrees F. And since todays conventional oils are thin 5W-20 oils, start up wear is even less of a
potential issue, especially in mild winter climates like Los Angeles where you live.
The "better flow properties" of synthetics are marginal. Example: A 5W-20 conventional oil at zero degrees F will actually flow slightly faster than a 10W-30 full synthetic. This is easily demonstrated by putting samples of each in your home freezer.
In the end, owners in mild climates who use synthetics are choosing them for emotional reasons. None of these synthetic using owners can provide even one case history example of a Toyota engine operated in a mild climate that suffered heavy piston ring, bearing or camshaft wear, loss of compression, sludge, etc. when lubed by a conventional oil that was changed every 3-6 months or 3000-5000 miles.
However, there have been a few Toyota engines (e.g. the 22R series engines) that suffered timing chain mechanism wear before the 500,000 mile mark even if the owner changed the oil every 3000 miles. But in those cases, the owners who used synthetics had the same wear problem at the same odometer mileage as the owners who used conventional oils.
KathyRicks, you cite two examples of Toyota engines going mega miles then draw conclusions? Not very scientific, to be sure. Most Toyota engines and for that matter Honda engines and GM engines were in cr@p shape long, long before 150,000 miles and this is because most people do not maintain their engines properly. If you study old UOA reports from years ago, you too will see that conventional oil 10-20+ years ago were cr@p compared to today's Pennzoil Dino Yellow Bottle, for example.
Those examples you cite are the exception and not the rule.
KathyRicks, you cite two examples of Toyota engines going mega miles then draw conclusions? Not very scientific, to be sure. Most Toyota engines and for that matter Honda engines and GM engines were in cr@p shape long, long before 150,000 miles and this is because most people do not maintain their engines properly. If you study old UOA reports from years ago, you too will see that conventional oil 10-20+ years ago were cr@p compared to today's Pennzoil Dino Yellow Bottle, for example. Those examples you cite are the exception and not the rule.
The examples I cited are two of thousands of Toyota engines that have lasted between 500,000 - 1,000,000 miles using a wide variety of brands and weights of conventional oil. Since thousands of Toyota owners have reached that mileage using conventional oil - even using what you consider to be the low quality API "SE" "SF" and "SG" conventional oils that were available 20-35 years ago - a reasonable conclusion is that virtually every Toyota engine that rolls off the assembly line is capable of that kind of mileage if the owner uses conventional oil and practices the similar driving and maintenance habits as the 500,000 - 1,000,000 mile owners.
Used Oil Analysis reports sound objective and scientific but can be badly misleading because the wear numbers don't have much practical meaning. Example: if back in 1975 someone preached to the thousands of future 500,000 - 1,000,000 mile 1975-1995 Toyota owners that use of synthetics would generate "better" UOA wear numbers they'd say: "We don't think those numbers mean much because they fail to educate us about the crucial fact that conventional oil - even API "SE" "SF" and "SG" quality oils - are capable of reliably taking our engines to 500,000 - 1,000,000 miles."
The examples I cited are two of thousands of Toyota engines that have lasted between 500,000 - 1,000,000 miles using a wide variety of brands and weights of conventional oil. Since thousands of Toyota owners have reached that mileage using conventional oil - even using what you consider to be the low quality API "SE" "SF" and "SG" conventional oils that were available 20-35 years ago - a reasonable conclusion is that virtually every Toyota engine that rolls off the assembly line is capable of that kind of mileage if the owner uses conventional oil and practices the similar driving and maintenance habits as the 500,000 - 1,000,000 mile owners.
Used Oil Analysis reports sound objective and scientific but can be badly misleading because the wear numbers don't have much practical meaning. Example: if back in 1975 someone preached to the thousands of future 500,000 - 1,000,000 mile 1975-1995 Toyota owners that use of synthetics would generate "better" UOA wear numbers they'd say: "We don't think those numbers mean much because they fail to educate us about the crucial fact that conventional oil - even API "SE" "SF" and "SG" quality oils - are capable of reliably taking our engines to 500,000 - 1,000,000 miles."
I agree that Toyota makes great engines, but the reason those examples and others show mega milage is much more because of proper owner maintenence, and much less to do with choice of oil, and I think you and I can agree on that ;-)
But if you take a Toyota engine and not maintain it very well, it surely will not go 200,000 miles much less 500,000 problem free.
But regardless, todays conventional dino oils will show less wear then those of 10+ years ago, and that is not subjective at all. Wear numbers are wear numbers in regard to the metals showing up in used oil analysis.
There are Hyundia and Kia and other "bs" brands where one can find examples of them going 500,000 miles so this really is not saying much. While in Europe I met people that had over 400,000 miles on their Fiats and Fiats are one of the worse cars ever made. I think maintenence has much more to do with it then the brand of engine and oil.
I think Toyota and Honda owners tend to take better care of their cars then say Pontiac, and Mitsubishi owners....it's about owner demographics, social-economics, level of education and I better stop right there! ;-)
steiglitz:
The lowest educated people (direct report labourers) Drive the toyota and honda the dumbass, rich educated people (Engineers, managers) buy the volvo and mercedes and BMW and Land rover(choke).
BTW-Chevy Cavaliers and Pontiac Grandams are very high mileage capable.
Now-
My Wifes 05 Rav-4 2AZFE is dead at 50K due to defective, POOR QUALITY, TOYOTA oil filter. The cr@p WOrld economy is killing us again. Preach: Isolationism!
All this quality and longevity generalisations on these page are worthless, and statistically irrelevant.
Last edited by grumpy in NH; 07-01-2008 at 12:45 PM.
Reason: sp grammar
I doubt seriously that your RAV-4's engine is done at 50k because of the Toyota oil filter. Improper installation, perhaps? I've seen many a Toyota/Lexus that have 100's of thousands of miles with nothing but Toyota filters having been used.
__________________ Ryan
2007 Toyota Yaris Base Sedan 5 speed, 51k miles
1997 Toyota 4Runner SR5 V6, 5 speed, Old Man Emu 881 front coils w/ N91 shocks, Old Man Emu 891 rear coils w/ Old Man Emu N86 shocks, 285/75/R16 Nitto Terra Grappler AT's, 1998 Toyota Land Cruiser wheels, LockRite locker in rear axle, TJM-17 front bumper, Deckplate mod, K&N air filter, Alpine CDA-9883, Scan Gauge 2, Cobra WX75ST cb radio, Yaesu FT-7800 ham radio, 168k miles
I doubt seriously that your RAV-4's engine is done at 50k because of the Toyota oil filter. Improper installation, perhaps? I've seen many a Toyota/Lexus that have 100's of thousands of miles with nothing but Toyota filters having been used.
Agreed Ryan. Certain poster here continues to lambast this and other Yaris sites with profund bool sheet so thick you can cut a knief with it...the amazing thing that he claims is beyond reality, and fact, to be sure.
Toyotas all over the world have logged trillions and trillions of miles with Toyota filters but this fact escapes some.
Use of synthetic motor oil
From all I've read and heard synthetic motor oils (Like Mobil 1) are better for your engine and improve engine performance. I also read of a person taking his own synthetic oil when he had his scheduled changes since the first four are free. Does anyone here use synthetic oil in their Yaris? If so how does it effect you performance and mileage, and does your Toyota service rep. do your changes? 
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