Toyota Tundra Forums banner

41 - 54 of 54 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Good info! I just paid a dealer to do my axle seal and it is still leaking!!! And they talked me out of replacing the bearing on top of that.

BTW, I am glad we all kissed and made up. Welcome Mr. B!
If you don't mind me asking, how much did you have to pay for the seal to be replaced?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
I forgot to mention something else. I found this out a little over a year & a half ago when I replaced the seal on my passenger side for the first time. I have searched for the pics but cannot find them, so I will try to give the best description as possible. Unfortunately my truck was no longer under warranty when I found this.

• Upon removing my axle for the first time on my passenger side I noticed large sharp metal burrs only about 20mm behind the oil seal.
• There is an inner metal tube that is welded inside the axle housing. This tube along with the axle housing tube provides a double wall thickness.
• The inner tube runs the length from the differential housing to about 20mm behind the oil seal.
• Obviously this inner tube goes through a deburring step in the manufacturing process.
• This particular tube had not been deburred prior to the axle being installed. Large sharp metal burrs were on the ID of this tube 360° around, and I also found the burrs attached to my drain plug on the differential.
• See the attached pics describing this.

I cannot prove that these burrs contributed to previous seal failure, but I do know that sharp metal shavings and rubber oil seal do not go well together. Knowing the tremendous amount of seal failures out there, I looked all over the web, but did not see anyone else reporting this issue.

Now, for those of you that have had seals replaced by the dealer and had no success, listen to this part. I took several photos of these burrs, and showed them to the “HEAD mechanic” at the local Toyota dealership. His exact response was “What does metal shavings have to do with your oil seal failing?” Yeah, I gave him the deer in the headlight look and simply said never mind and walked away. As Bill Engval would have said “Here’s your sign”! It just goes to show don’t always judge a book by it’s cover…. Not saying mechanics don’t know what they are doing by any means. There’s just some better than others in any field.

Just wanted to mention this to any of you DIYers so you can look for it. It will stick out like a sore thumb, no worries. If I can ever find the actual pics, I will share them.
Deburr.jpg
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
95 Posts
Discussion Starter #44
Highwaylizard, what happened to the links you posted, I cant get them to open?

Thanks,
Conk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
95 Posts
Discussion Starter #45
As you remember, this axle was a salvage yard replacement. It supposedly had 85,000 mile on it, but the mechanic here doing the work said it needed to have the axle bearings replaced because of a roaring sound, so he did. And he sent it off to our local machine shop for them to press off and on the new bearing. And, 3000 miles later gear oil was dripping on the inside of the tire, both sides!
So here we are, I found this site and posted. After viewing Mikes post and pics, and after speaking with him on the phone several times, I felt very comfortable with knowing what the problem could be as well as visualizing the repair. I pulled the axles off and could see a wear spot on the retainer in mention. Everything tells a story right? So here I see what should be new parts but not, only the bearing was replaced. The machine shop reused the old retainers and the anti-lock ring. No problem with me, but why is it leaking? Ah, and it is exactly what Mike had explained… I did as he instructed and put some grease around the retainer, I slid the axle back in and spun it around a few times and re pulled it. The grease I put on the retainer should have been wiped off by sliding the axle back into the housing if the seal made contact with the retainer right?, it did not. So off to the machine shop with all new parts… Two bearings, four retainers, two snap rings, two antilock rings, two outer dust seals and two o-rings. I showed the machine shop guy and the mechanic that did the first repair and they had no idea of the retainer measurement. Their routine practice was to press the antilock ring and retainer tight against each other as all parts would” bottom out”, no measuring. And, the machinist claimed they did many Toyota rear axles. The guy also claimed to have seen many of these leaking issues with the Toyota’s. His eyes got wide opened after I showed him the post and explained the correct way. This just simply amazed me of how this could slip by so many mechanics. Without a doubt, had I not found this site, and met Mike B, who knows how many times, I would have had to pull this axle. Who knows how much money this could have cost me. I am so grateful that Mike offered up his help! Mike, when you and your family come this way for your planned visit to Orlando, I would like to buy you a beer for sure, so make sure you hit me up!
This pic here shows a 2” PVC with a coupling on one end and a reducer on the other. You could use a plug instead; I just grabbed what I could find. This is Mike B’s idea I’m just posting a pic. I used this to knock the inner seals in, works perfect!
This pic is the measurements I used for setting the anti lock. I went off the flange to the center of the ring ¾” from flange face to center of ring. The other pic is how I measured the distance of the retainer off the same flange 1 ½” to center.
Another pic you can see the anti-lock ring gear looking down through the sensor hole. It is exactly 3/4" from the flange I measured off of. So it's not butted up against the snap ring either.
Anyhow, it's all fixed now and I'm glad I got my truck back up and running! Thanks to everyone! Conk
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,857 Posts
FYI.... Toyota came out with a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) for the inner axle seals. More than likely because of the old seal not seating right on the retainer. As Mike B discovered. So, a new seal replaced the old. New part # 90310-50006. Getting the new seal is probably a lot cheaper than having a machine shop make new retainers. Using a junkyard axle with 85K miles probably still had the old versions of the seals as well.

As you stated previously, the first time the machine shop replaced the bearings only. When you had the new bearings pressed on, did you replace the outer seals on the axle shaft/brake drum assembly and the o-rings on the axle housing? I have reused my retainers and snap rings multiple times and I have had no issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
As you remember, this axle was a salvage yard replacement. It supposedly had 85,000 mile on it, but the mechanic here doing the work said it needed to have the axle bearings replaced because of a roaring sound, so he did. And he sent it off to our local machine shop for them to press off and on the new bearing. And, 3000 miles later gear oil was dripping on the inside of the tire, both sides!
So here we are, I found this site and posted. After viewing Mikes post and pics, and after speaking with him on the phone several times, I felt very comfortable with knowing what the problem could be as well as visualizing the repair. I pulled the axles off and could see a wear spot on the retainer in mention. Everything tells a story right? So here I see what should be new parts but not, only the bearing was replaced. The machine shop reused the old retainers and the anti-lock ring. No problem with me, but why is it leaking? Ah, and it is exactly what Mike had explained… I did as he instructed and put some grease around the retainer, I slid the axle back in and spun it around a few times and re pulled it. The grease I put on the retainer should have been wiped off by sliding the axle back into the housing if the seal made contact with the retainer right?, it did not. So off to the machine shop with all new parts… Two bearings, four retainers, two snap rings, two antilock rings, two outer dust seals and two o-rings. I showed the machine shop guy and the mechanic that did the first repair and they had no idea of the retainer measurement. Their routine practice was to press the antilock ring and retainer tight against each other as all parts would” bottom out”, no measuring. And, the machinist claimed they did many Toyota rear axles. The guy also claimed to have seen many of these leaking issues with the Toyota’s. His eyes got wide opened after I showed him the post and explained the correct way. This just simply amazed me of how this could slip by so many mechanics. Without a doubt, had I not found this site, and met Mike B, who knows how many times, I would have had to pull this axle. Who knows how much money this could have cost me. I am so grateful that Mike offered up his help! Mike, when you and your family come this way for your planned visit to Orlando, I would like to buy you a beer for sure, so make sure you hit me up!
This pic here shows a 2” PVC with a coupling on one end and a reducer on the other. You could use a plug instead; I just grabbed what I could find. This is Mike B’s idea I’m just posting a pic. I used this to knock the inner seals in, works perfect!
This pic is the measurements I used for setting the anti lock. I went off the flange to the center of the ring ¾” from flange face to center of ring. The other pic is how I measured the distance of the retainer off the same flange 1 ½” to center.
Another pic you can see the anti-lock ring gear looking down through the sensor hole. It is exactly 3/4" from the flange I measured off of. So it's not butted up against the snap ring either.
Anyhow, it's all fixed now and I'm glad I got my truck back up and running! Thanks to everyone! Conk
Alright Dude!! Glad you got it back together! I hope I shed a little light on the subject. It was a pleasure speaking with you on this matter, and look forward to catching up with you one day.

I sure am glad that PVC pipe bomb looking thing didn't go off when you hit it with the hammer!!! Hey man it worked!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
FYI.... Toyota came out with a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) for the inner axle seals. More than likely because of the old seal not seating right on the retainer. As Mike B discovered. So, a new seal replaced the old. New part # 90310-50006. Getting the new seal is probably a lot cheaper than having a machine shop make new retainers. Using a junkyard axle with 85K miles probably still had the old versions of the seals as well.

As you stated previously, the first time the machine shop replaced the bearings only. When you had the new bearings pressed on, did you replace the outer seals on the axle shaft/brake drum assembly and the o-rings on the axle housing? I have reused my retainers and snap rings multiple times and I have had no issues.
If you have bought new seals since the TSB, then you have gotten the new design. Unfortunately the new design didn't work for me twice. The only reason it is reccomended using new press fir parts, is because some people use heat along with a press to remove parts. Heat and pressing the parts several times changes the metallurgical (temperment) of the part. I know folks that have re-used press fit parts before with no problems. Not saying you shouldn't by any means, but consider yourself lucky.

It has been determined that sometimes these things fail and other times they don't. I guess some of us just get lucky. I have enjoyed sharing info on this site with all of you guys, and look forward to more of it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
95 Posts
Discussion Starter #49
FYI.... Toyota came out with a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) for the inner axle seals. More than likely because of the old seal not seating right on the retainer. As Mike B discovered. So, a new seal replaced the old. New part # 90310-50006. Getting the new seal is probably a lot cheaper than having a machine shop make new retainers. Using a junkyard axle with 85K miles probably still had the old versions of the seals as well.

As you stated previously, the first time the machine shop replaced the bearings only. When you had the new bearings pressed on, did you replace the outer seals on the axle shaft/brake drum assembly and the o-rings on the axle housing? I have reused my retainers and snap rings multiple times and I have had no issues.
New seal design still doesn't help much with the retainer alignment. The retainer alignment was my issue. Yota needs to make a wider one and call it something else, not a retainer.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,857 Posts
If you have bought new seals since the TSB, then you have gotten the new design. Unfortunately the new design didn't work for me twice. The only reason it is reccomended using new press fir parts, is because some people use heat along with a press to remove parts. Heat and pressing the parts several times changes the metallurgical (temperment) of the part. I know folks that have re-used press fit parts before with no problems. Not saying you shouldn't by any means, but consider yourself lucky.

It has been determined that sometimes these things fail and other times they don't. I guess some of us just get lucky. I have enjoyed sharing info on this site with all of you guys, and look forward to more of it.
New seal design still doesn't help much with the retainer alignment. The retainer alignment was my issue. Yota needs to make a wider one and call it something else, not a retainer.
Bummer! Glad to see the modification from Mike B. work!

Side note Mike B. to answer my own question about converting the rear 8.4 to a full float, it's already been done. Just found it at frontrangeoffroadfab.com sells them. Now to figure out the axle shafts....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
95 Posts
Discussion Starter #51
I thought I would revisit this thread again and add a helpful update for those who may be struggling with this issue. I found axle fluid again in my rear brakes coming from this notorious axle seal. When my friend mrbaldwin 76 suggested a unique fix to this problem, I did not follow his plan exactly due to the time in having a machine shop produce a wider retainer, heat treating and polish etc., not to mention the expense. As mike mentioned, he works in the bearing industry and was able to have his retainer made through a favor and being at the right place, right time. And, I thought since I was aware of the problem now, I could position the retainer in a way that the axle seal would ride in the center of the retainer surface, and not on the edge close to the tapered part of the retainer. Unfortunately, the seal retainer will only go in so far unless the material in the axle housing that Mike mentioned is ground down enough to where the retainer can be pushed towards the hub more. After inspection of the retainers I pulled off of the leaking axle, you could clearly see the seal wear is so close to the edge of the retainer and any minimal lateral axle movement, could cause a leak.
I reached back out to Mike the other day. He gave me another suggestion that was cheaper, quicker, and worked out perfect and is why I posting this again. His suggestion was to bring 4 retainers, two for each axle, to a machine shop and have the small tapered or chamfer edge taken off. Then, match these two together back-to-back thus making for a wider retainer (see photo's). The idea is that this will be one continuous surface for the seal to ride on. And, as you can see in the photo after the machine work was finished, you can barely see the line in the middle where they match up. I ran my finger across this and you cannot feel the line where these two matches up when pressed on the axle. My machinist friend said it took him about 2 hours to do 4 each taking his time. He used his lathe first, then ground for final to make these flawlessly match. I don't know what the cost comparison would be verses having one like Mike B had done, but I would think it would be more expensive and time consuming.
Next, I ground out the material located inside the housing so that the retainers could have room. In doing this, I placed neodymium magnets inside the axle housing just passed where I was going to grind. This will help catch any of the material that escaped my positive air flow. I have a shop vac that can be used as a leaf blower. I connected it to the opposite side of the axle housing (tapped hose on) forcing air through and out the side I ground on. It worked perfectly in keeping out the grinding stone material and metal shavings. Wearing a mask and eye goggles is a must when doing this!
I inspected the axle vent cap for any issues. I know this can be a source of leaking seals with axles if plugged. Axles are back in and Truck with 400 + miles since. I reinspected and no signs of leaks. I hope this info will be of help. A big thanks to Mike B for his kindness and excellent ideas!
Conk
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
@conk Great write up man! Looks like a great fix. Being that you liked my idea, I REALLY hope it works out for you! If not, I'm changing my name and moving to Costa Rica! Actually doesn't sound that bad. There's tons of really cool Yotas over there!
Anyhow, It was great speaking to you again after all this time. Definitely keep in touch. Awesome to hear of another Toyota success story of 400K+ miles! Nothing like a Yota!

For those of you that have never seen this, it's awesome! TOP GEAR presents Killing a Toyota. SURPRISE ENDING!
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
95 Posts
Discussion Starter #53
Ha, ha, lol!!! Damn that's a tough ass truck! Cool videos!!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
95 Posts
Discussion Starter #54
Hey Mike B, I Made a change to the axle retainers which I think works a little better. I wasn't happy with the location of the abs ring as it was not in center of the hole. I removed the chamfer (photo's) off of the retainer closest to the abs ring. This allowed for some extra room to position the abs ring in the right place. Amazingly, it also puts the seals primary surface on the retainer towards the hub and the secondary sealing part to ride on the retainer towards the abs ring, thus missing the hair line in-between these retainers. Shoot man, I can do this blind folded now! When she gets to 500K I may enter it into one of those video's you posted!
 

Attachments

41 - 54 of 54 Posts
Top