[billyburrito]

So this happened about 2 weeks ago, left dealership after getting oil changed, I was about 1/4 mile away and my engine shuts off. I manage to limp it back close to the dealership before it won't start anymore. In all it turned off 4x and was driven more than 1mi, but less than 2. Tech comes out and adds the oil (smoke came out when they removed the oil cap btw) that they forgot to put in and tries to start it, no go, they tow it back.

I was leaving the next day for a trip which the dealership covered a rental, but they are telling me "great news, your engine jumped time and saved itself any damage". They refuse to do any inspection besides listening and hooking it up to the diagnostic equipment. Had it taken to another dealer (advice from toyota corporate) to get a 2nd opinion, well the service managers got to talking and they did much the same, listed and hooked it up to their diag equipment (a waste of time IMO).

My insurance is willing to do a comprehensive claim on the vehicle and get it properly diagnosed, but I have a $500 deductible.

So just kinda looking for opinions or other anecdotes of this happening.

Smart diesel mechanic friend of mine says it is possible there is no damage, but there is also the possibility of considerable damage. Even if it jumped time, wont the pistons smack the valves (the 4.7 is an interference engine). Svc manager says if the valves were damaged at all the engine wouldn't start.

Any thoughts or opinions? Should I stop bothering with the dealer and let insurance take care of it, is there something else I should be asking the dealer to do. I keep getting into circular arguments with the svc manager about my Sequoia is now damaged. They were willing to warranty the engine for 3-5k miles, "if anything happens, it'll happen in that time".

Edit: It has 137k miles on it and ran just fine before all this.

 

[XPLORx4]

Option 1. Insurance route: If you get it "properly diagnosed" and the diagnosis is the same - engine isn't damaged, it'll set you back a couple hundred for the diagnosis. If the engine is damaged, you get a new engine for $500.

Option 2. Accept dealer's offer to fully warranty the engine (parts and labor) for 5000 miles (not "3-5K miles"). The dealer is more-or-less right that if something is going to fail, it will happen within that time. The oil-less condition may have damaged bearing seals or gaskets which will start leaking very soon. You will notice increased oil consumption and/or smoking out the tailpipe, and potentially higher emissions. Have them perform a compression test and document it, and repeat this in 4800 miles. Get in writing that they will replace the engine at no cost to you if it leaks (oil or coolant), has significant compression reduction, shows increased oil consumption or smokes out the tailpipe.

Personally, I would discuss further with your insurance to see if the claim is still valid after you drive it for a few thousand miles and start to notice issues.

 

[pkt1213]

So they are telling you that them not putting any oil in cause it to jump time or that it jumping time and not running correctly happened at the miraculous time of them not putting oil in it and it saved the engine? That is the most confusing part. Have they fixed the timing issue to do their diagnostic? If not are they running it with the timing off?I don't know on the 4.7 but I have seen cars, if it has only slipped one tooth, run poorly but survive without valve damage.

I would want to see numbers at a minimum for compression and leak down tests. If they messed up the timing by not putting oil in it, new timing belt and water pump. A 6k warranty with 2 oil changes every 3k and final compression and leak down numbers at the end of that time. Might also ask them to drop the pan and inspect the crankshaft bearings.

Then you might give them the option to pay your insurance deductible. While this isn't right and it sucks that it would be reflected on your insurance, they may jump at it.

 

[guyaverage]

I just typed out a response and refreshed the page and saw your post ^^ and it was so similar it was scary..!

I too am having a hard time relating a random jumped timing to a botched oil change. Unless one of the cams stopped turning, or at least dragged enough that the belt jumped, but even if this was due to lack of oil, there may be other problems to deal with (cam damaged, bearing caps damaged, damage to the belt, etc).

I'd want from them a full explanation as to why this happened due to their botched oil change, including having them remove both valve covers, cam bearing caps, and timing belt for inspection before I'd agree to anything.

My nephew had his Honda at a dealer for an oil change and got a good 5-6 miles down the road before he started hearing noises and realized his oil pressure light was on. The dealer towed it back, apologized profusely, flled it up with oil, and sent him on his way. I talked to him several times over the course of the next month or two, and all was still fine, no apparent problems or noises, but he was so paranoid about damage he traded it in.

I'd ask for 10,000 miles and see how they react. Another inexpensive option would be to have Blackstone labs or one of the other well known labs do an oil analysis and check for elevated levels of wear metals (iron, aluminum, chromium, copper, etc) in the oil that may indicate damage. You could do this on your own dime pretty cheap.

 

[pkt1213]

I wasn't even thinking on the cam end. Oil starvation can do so much to an engine so fast it is hard to predict and it can also be cumulative. That's why we were baffling oil pans etc on some of the cars I have had in the past just to keep oil near the pick up during high G cornering.

Maybe if they will cover the deducible and let you insurance pay for a new engine at dealership so a win-win for everyone except the insurance and your future rate increase. Maybe a better trained monkey could install the engine over the one that didn't put oil in it.

On a side note, a customer told me Pep Boys blew up their rear axle because the tech drained it but couldn't get the fill plug out. So he just put the drain plug back and said good to go.

 

[tgell001]

Did you notice the oil light on? its not on a delay, itll come on as soon as the oil pump pickup runs dry. Honestly, driving 2 miles with no oil will not likely lock the motor up unless you were in stop an go traffic and 2 miles was >10-15mins. Plus, if the starter was still turning, the motor was not locked up. Furthermore, the cams are less susceptible to locking up than the crankshaft because by design they're ran with less oil upon start up (because they are immediately coated 100%) so i think they would still be good beyond the failure of the crankshaft bearings. That being said, anything is possible.

The timing jump is really confusing, if it did in fact jump timing i would be hard pressed to tell a customer it saved their motor. It would be hard to start and would maybe cut off like you said. Unless they fixed the timing it would still be wrong and run like crap now. The smoke coming from the oil cap could have been from a valve being damaged as a result, the rocker is burning up. You could do a compression check and if this happened it will be obvious.

Also, if you've ever use a dealership quality diagnostic tool you'd know it is not a waste of time. You can view any vital sign in real time and every occurrence of what the computer deems an "incident". you could literally fart into the intake and you'd see the intake air temp increase. That being said, they could view the base timing and the active timing and be able to tell if its retarded or advanced.

I'm just really confused by the diagnosis and seems like the good ole smoke and mirrors... I hate dealerships, a local shop generally will at least try and do good work because most of their business is by referral and you screw one person over with the internet now and youre toast. Dealerships are HUGE, and one (or a bunch of) unhappy people wont hurt their bottom line.

 

[Andy4]

Have an oil analysis done and the filter cut open and checked for metal debris. If the oil pan has a magnetic pad, have it checked also for metal debris. Do oil changes each 1000 miles and an analysis of oil and filter. Jumped timing belt doesn't sound right.

 

[ragabash1]

If it ran without oil long enough that it got hot and the cam bearings started to seize it would certainly jump time. I have seen several OHC motors that had cam bearing failures that had jumped belts, some even snapped off the cam sprocket and grenaded the motor.
Once the motor cooled down and the parts shrank back down the motor would turn over again.
Then they put in some oil and things loosened up.

As a mechanic I would say what needs to happen next is to teardown the motor top end and look for scoring in the cam bearings and lobes, and drop the pan and check the bottom end bearings and the mains for heat discoloration, scoring and make sure the bearings are still in place. Since that requires pulling the motor out of the chassis or removing the front differential, it's not a small expense.

Again, speaking as a mechanic, I would say if it indeed ran until it jumped time due to cams seizing up you most likely have a serious amount of unseen engine damage. Saying "If it lasts 5000 miles it's fine" is not correct, at all. It may have eroded the clearances in the bearings and while it will run fine for a while, it basically put 200,000 miles of wear on the motor in five minutes. All the tolerances will be loose. It may have scuffed the cylinder walls and glazed up the rings, or partially melted the piston ring grooves and seized up the rings on the pistons and you will have oil consumption. It may have even partially spun the bottom end rod bearings or mains and you can't tell until it does seize up.

If it had been run a few minutes without oil and you noticed the gauge was reading zero and you shut it off, that's one thing. Driving it away and running it with no oil pressure until it stopped running will almost always mean severe internal damage. I'd bet on it.

And don't you even check your gauges while driving, especially after any engine service? How did you not notice it had no oil pressure?

People call me paranoid but after any time I have had to have a car serviced by someone else I always double check fluid levels and lug nut torque and stuff like that. Maybe I am over cautious but I saw enough people royally mess things up in the shop I worked at that I always check everything I don't do myself. I mean, wheels falling off, tie rods and shocks coming loose, rags left places they shouldn't be...

 

[mibro]

So much fail.

I feel sorry for the OP but were the oil pressure light and your engine seizing the first time not clues?

And what can you say about the dealer other than scumbags.

People call me paranoid but after any time I have had to have a car serviced by someone else I always double check fluid levels and lug nut torque and stuff like that.

Me too. When the Toyota dealer was doing the oil changes on my Sequoia when it was new, I'd check the dipstick before driving it off the dealer's lot.

 

[billyburrito]

Looks like even my insurance company backed out. I will be getting in writing a guarantee from them and see what happens. Mechanic friend said if there is damage it will show itself within 200 miles.

 

[pkt1213]

Are you having them do anymore testing? What are the tests they performed and results? Did they fix the timing problem?

 

[billyburrito]

Even if they do any testing, if they come up with something, I doubt they are going to let me know. The service manager is in cost control mode. The timing problem has been fixed, from the folks that I have talked to, they say that the jumping time result is very suspect but could be the result of the PVTI controller being starved for oil. My plan is get whatever guarantee or warranty in writing and driving it around to see if I can get the oil pressure light to kick on.