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If you do not know what you are talking about then PLEASE keep your OPINION to yourself before you go spreading misinformation. I'm not trying to be a jerk or an internet tough guy, I moderate/admin a LOT of automotive websites and see misinformation stated as FACT everyday. I do what I can to nip it.
Like it or not, this is a public forum. Simply because you mod/admin other websites doesn't mean your "opinion" is more valid than the next guy's. If that ruffles your feathers, sign off and move along.
 

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Don't take it personally, I just don't want people reading this thread getting the wrong information. If you wish to dry torque your nuts, then have at it. :eek:
 

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While surfing the web I came upon this gem at Tirerack.com concerning rotating tires on your vehicle.
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Once you have completed your test fit, we suggest removing the wheel and applying a thin coating of anti-seize around the axle hubs to help prevent rust and permit easier removal when it's time to rotate your tires. Do not apply anti-seize compound to the lug hardware or studs.
If you have any concerns...CALL US! We will be happy to help you solve your problem.
TIRERACK.COM
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Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer . . . .

Jonesy:clown:

 

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This article explains it better than I can. I should have stated it differently.

http://www.zerofast.com/torque.htm

Keep in mind that if the lubricant on a bolt and nut combination is changed, the tightening torque value must be altered to achieve the desired amount of bolt tension.

This also would be why the tire shops would not want a lubricant on the studs. Their torque sticks are calibrated for a certain average torque that jives with all vehicles (yikes). When the lube is used, it throws that all off and an over-torque situation can occur. That and they don't want Anti-seize everywhere......
 

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Some years ago, I had my tires balanced at a local tire shop. The results were such that I sent a strongly-worded letter of complaint to the management thereof.

The most critical complaint (there were many) was the method by which my lug nuts were torqued. The tire buster used an air impact wrench with a torque stick, followed by a "check" with click-type torque wrench. If the air wrench with the torque stick overtorques the nut, then the torque wrench still clicks. This method does not insure that the torque is the correct amount, rather it insures that the torque is higher than the correct amount, and the person who did it on my lug nuts didn't have a clue. My complaints to him fell on deaf ears.

In my case, the torque should have been 83 ft-lb. When I got my truck home, I set my torque wrench at 130 ft-lb and removed all the lug nuts. The wrench clicked on 18 of the 24 lug nuts, which meant they were torqued to at least 130 ft-lb. They were torqued to much higher than that, but I don't have an analog torque wrench to measure it with.

I showed years ago via a simple experiment that a lubricant on the threads of a bolt could easily result in three times the longitudinal stress on a bolt that a given torque would produce with dry threads. If I had used lubricant on my lug bolt threads and they behaved similarly, the resulting stress on my lug bolts would have been 4.7 times what was required, or more.

That factor would likely have a wide range as it depends on the lubricant used, whether it is oil, anti-sieze, WD-40, or whatever. Now, couple that with the variability of torque sticks, air wrenches, and air pressure used with the air wrenches, and the result would be longitudinal stress in a lug bolt that is many times what the manufacturer's torque spec was intended to provide.

I spent a career designing automotive service equipment. The single biggest problem I faced was the combination of: 1) management not willing to have service people trained, because that costs time and money; 2) service people not willing to be trained, because that costs time and ego; and, 3) service people not being trainable (some are, some aren't).

So, how do you calibrate the use of a torque stick and a torque wrench and some kind of anti-sieze on lug bolt threads to produce the desired longitudinal stress therein such that a typical tire buster, who shouldn't be using a torque stick in the first place, would get it right?
 

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Thanks DJ. Just like I've been saying, due to the metallurgy and physics implicit to the OEM hubs, Toyota specifies 83 ft/lbs of applied torque on dry threads to achieve the optimal longitudinal torsion on the nut/thread interface. Those of you that think you know better and apply some sort of lubricant to your lug threads, can only be determining final applied torque by wild-ass guessing.
 

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Remmy, there is a method to determine the longitudinal stress on a bolt that results from torqueing a nut. That method is to measure the stretch of the bolt as the nut is tightened. That's a bit difficult to do with a lug bolt, right?

I once hired in a young engineer whose previous job involved measuring the stretch of a bolt, while it was being tightened, using ultrasonic sensors. The instrument literally bounced a sound wave down the length of the bolt and measured the round-trip travel time to determine its length. You might laugh, but when I had Lasik done four years ago, the thickness of my corneas was measured using a similar technique, and the device used was hand-held, no bigger than a small flashlight.

The problem, overwhelmingly, is the training, skill level, and willingness to get it right of the person using the wrench. Try googling "+Sears +lawsuit +lug +nuts +torque +complaints" and read the horror stories.
 

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anti-seize the hub ring while your at it.
 

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It's simple. Anti seize pasta is mandatory on thread. Use the ceramic one.
The strength of a bolt/nut connection depends on the way you stretch the bolt.
That's why you need to torque the nut with 121 nm. You must make sure that the bolt is lubricated so that al the strength goes to stretching the bolt instead of friction on the tread.
Common practice with helicopters, planes, battle tanks, cars, motorcycles, rockets and of course (downstream) oil and gas.
Most car mechanics doesn't know **** about it, at least in Europe. Lack of education. I examined high pressure bolting mechanics and was on the board of specialists. Not that it matters, but just to let you know I my business.
 

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While I definitely believe in clean threads, I don't believe in dry threads - I use either Lock-Tite or anti-seize. The argument about over stressing components (any of them) is well made; but since we don't have the OEM specs (I mean the company that designed the part - not the company that assembled the parts), we don't know what the manufacturer intended. As to wheels, the bolts are steel, the lugs are steel (probably chromed) and the wheels are probably not steel - point is: dissimilar metals (read: galling). Without fail, I use anti-seize between the wheel and brake hub (either disc or drum), and anti-seize between the washer/lug nut and the wheel. As to anti-seize (not any kind of lube, like WD-40, or silicone grease) on the lug threads - well, I agree, lack of failure (loose nut, or nut lost) is not a very good criteria for success. But since I have broken off various threaded fasteners (the worst one was a spark-plug in a racing engine), I always use anti-seize (or Lock-Tite, if appropriate) and a torque wrench. Bottom line: always use a torque wrench - always, always, always. And, creaping up on the final torque is second nature to me - esp with fasteners of significant torque (lug nuts, harmonic-balancer retaining bolt, etc.)
 

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Will continue to use. Have used it on every vehicle I've owned. Use it on close tolerance bolts on F/A-18 that take 525ft lbs of torque with not effect on the bolt or being able to reuse and re-torque multiple times.
 

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Everyone knows what opinions are like so I will just say that most people who don't know what they are doing should just stick to dry studs and try to hit the 83 ft/lb mark..lol

I am also an engineer and have worked on trucks my entire life and my opinion is that a lot of you are being overly critical of the fact that you might end up a little over the torque spec if you use ant-seize on your threads. I fully understand and appreciate the actual scientific reasoning and methods some of you are using in your argument. I don't think anyone is saying globbing lube on the threads is a good idea but let me ask a question to put this whole thing into perspective.

Which is worse... using a tiny dab of anti-sieze and possibly getting a few ft/lbs over the mark or some jack leg with an impact hammer hitting the lugs to 150-200 ft/lb..?

My asnwer will be the latter every time. The fact that a wheels stud just doesn't snap off when torqued to that level makes the entire argument about being a little over the 83 ft/lb mark a little bit rediculous. We are talking a consumer product and a spec that would have been engineered with a margin of safety, 83 ft/lb is just the sweet spot. Will 65 ft/lb hold safely? It sure will, how about 100 ft/lb...Yep.

How many people do you think can hit 83 ft/lbs using the stock tire iron? A lot of people have no idea what a torque wrench is, change a tire not knowing what the spec is and they are driving all over the place just fine. It sounds funny but even in a lot of engineering as long as you are close or have a wide enough tolerance, that is all that matters. One more thing is that the Toyota style lugs (trucks at least) have a large captured washer that creates a lot of surface friction. If you compared that friction surface area to the actual thread contacts I would be willing to bet it is the dominate contributor to the overall friction force.

When I started off-roading my trucks years ago is when I started using the ever slightest dab of anti-seize on my stud/lugs and really following the torque specs. I only use the anit-sieze once the very first time I have to take the wheels off. The main reason I use the anti-seize is because now I often drive through water deep enough to submerge the entire wheel. It is almost always fresh water but can be slightly brackish sometimes. I initially worried they might come loose with it on there but I will always go over them at least twice before I am done putting the wheels back on. After a lot of regular checking the torque I have just come to trust my initial multiple torque checks when putting the wheels on are good enough as they have never loosened.
The last rig I bought to play with, an 05 GX470 in rough shape, had all 24 lugs so tight it took every bit of my 200lb body weight bouncing on the end of a 3 ft' 1/2" drive breaker to break them loose.
I replaced those studs because I have seen enough over stressed studs break after the wheel takes a sharp strike, I have no worries in my mind about using anti-sieze the way I do.
However, all that said, most people should just stick to dry studs and try to hit the torque spec.
 

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Interesting thread here. Fact from Toyota Motor Corp design- no lube on wheel nuts period. Not my opinion, but I do work for Toyota at one of the manufacturing plants and that is very well communicated and a strictly followed policy. Doesnt meant Toyota doesnt use approved lubricants on some parts because they do. 02 sensors are one for sure that have anti seize applied. Some also have different types of lock tight to ensure bolts dont back off, just nothing on wheel nuts.
That being said I also live and drive in the salt belt and I know what its like to try and get a wheel off a car if it hasnt been removed in years. Usually takes a sledge hammer with more than just a little coaxing. I'm guessing thats why some think anti seize or lube on the lug nuts help. So just put a shot of something on the back of the rim instead. I believe that has been said on this thread a few times. Keeps the 2 surfaces from seizing together yet doesnt get any lube on the threads of the wheel studs. I do that when I swap the wife's tires from winter to summer and vice versa. Torque is then never compromised since no contaminates on the threads and the wheel comes right off as soon as the last nut is removed.
 
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