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Does anyone have the specs from when they had their Tundra aligned with the Camburg upper control arms?
Camburg Alignment
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How much height did you dial in to the coilovers? The upper arms increase camber, so you can increase caster with a lift without the tires looking like the spindles are bent. You should be able to get well over 1* caster with 2" lift and DJ's specs for camber and toe.
Post what you have, and pictures of the alignment cams front and rear on each side, as well as the height difference from stock on each side from whatever lift you have (or say if it's stock).
-Sean
Post what you have, and pictures of the alignment cams front and rear on each side, as well as the height difference from stock on each side from whatever lift you have (or say if it's stock).
-Sean
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I have Bilstein 5100 front and rear. The fronts are at the max height. My caster reading Left is 4.0 degrees, the Right is 3.6 degrees. The camber is 0.0 at the left wheel and 0.2 at the right wheel. The left toe is .10 degrees the right wheel toe is .05 degrees and the total toe is .15 degrees.
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When I used to have my 5100's, they were at max height, and I also had 2" blocks in the rear with 285/75/16's.
Here are my old alignment specs:
Camber: Left 0.2, Right -0.1; Caster: Left 2.8, Right 2.6; Toe: Left 0.10, Right 0.05; Total toe 0.15; Steer Ahead 0.03.
The Camburg UCA's move the ball-joint, so you have to add more positive caster than the computer shows. If the caster is in the normal range on the computer, it'll probably be off in reality, and this will put your tires farther back in the wheel well (could scrub). The toe and camber should be in the normal range on the computer, but drive it and make adjustments to what it is in reality.
Did you have a problem with yours or were you just checking to make sure other people had the same specs??
Here are my old alignment specs:
Camber: Left 0.2, Right -0.1; Caster: Left 2.8, Right 2.6; Toe: Left 0.10, Right 0.05; Total toe 0.15; Steer Ahead 0.03.
The Camburg UCA's move the ball-joint, so you have to add more positive caster than the computer shows. If the caster is in the normal range on the computer, it'll probably be off in reality, and this will put your tires farther back in the wheel well (could scrub). The toe and camber should be in the normal range on the computer, but drive it and make adjustments to what it is in reality.
Did you have a problem with yours or were you just checking to make sure other people had the same specs??
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You don't need that much caster...2* is fine.
Specs should be the same on both sides:
+2* caster
+0.2* camber
+0.04* toe
...From DJ's specs. I might have that camber reading wrong, but I know it's a hair positive. I run a hair negative...it's easier to go a little negative, with a lift, than positive...but positive is certainly attainable.
-Sean
Specs should be the same on both sides:
+2* caster
+0.2* camber
+0.04* toe
...From DJ's specs. I might have that camber reading wrong, but I know it's a hair positive. I run a hair negative...it's easier to go a little negative, with a lift, than positive...but positive is certainly attainable.
-Sean
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No not really. The alignment guy here where I work me and him did the alignment there last week and those are the specs that we got whenever we finished. I looked at the specs I had from when I did just the Bilsteins and the caster was not that much.
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I've ran more caster than the computer (normal range) shows since I've put the Camburg UCA's on, otherwise my tires (285/75/16's) rub my fenders (I have stock fender flares). I have a little bit different specs now that I have different coilovers, but my truck used to drive straight for a long time without my hands on the wheel with those specs, and the 5100's. My toe and camber have always been in the normal range.
I'm not going to pretend that I understand all the details of camber and toe but I have a general question. I had my 4x4 shop install a camburg 3" lift with upper control arms and I've had issues with alignment. I took the truck back in and explained that when I reach the outer extents of the turn to the left or right (basically the wheel is cranked all the way) the steering locks into this position and it takes some effort to pull it back. The shop readjusted my alignment and now its better however when turning left my front tire rubs in the wheel well but when turning right I don't get any rub. Is this something to be aware of? My 4x4 shop also told me that they felt the geometry on the Camburg UCA was off and that they weren't able to get my camber perfect due to this.
I can't believe the OP can get 3.6-4.0 degrees of caster on our IFS with a lift, if at all!! Are you sure those numbers are right?
I attached DJ's alignment writeup. He gives great descriptions to help in understanding what the specifications mean and what they do.
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Just noticed you're in Boulder. I'm curious what shop you're using, because they are completely wrong about the arms (Camburg builds them on a fixture) and they obviously have no idea how to correctly align the truck. It's probably in your best interest to make sure they installed the arms correctly, and didn't reverse the sides or something. Also, when not installing these yourself, inspect the ring at the top of the spindle for cracks.
Take your truck to the Big-O in Louisville, at South Boulder Road and...er...93rd? I think that's the cross street, anyway it's the only Big-O in L-ville, and it's in the same place as the King Soopers mini-mall. Probably want to talk to Andy, find out if Norm is still working the alignment rack. If they ask, tell them Sean with the built silver Tundra with the long travel kit highly recommended them. They use a Hunter system.
It's not going to be a 50$ alignment, but it will be correct within a hundredth of a degree.
Your other good option is Boulder Toyota, ask for Jacob, or get in touch with him through the Toycrawlers website.
You want the same specs I posted earlier on the thread, and IIRC what I posted for camber before is incorrect...should be +2.00 caster, +0.25 camber, +0.04 toe, both sides set absolutely equal. Might want to verify that with DJ's explanations (search), but I'm pretty certain the factory spec is +0.25 camber, not +0.20 like I posted before.
Right now, your truck's caster is way low. Tell them "it needs about a quart of caster oil" and see what they say
ound:...but seriously, that's why it feels the way it does at full lock...gravity is encouraging the system to steer, rather than encouraging it to return to center. It's also why the tire is hitting the back of the wheel well.High caster does a few things...it allows gravity to provide return to center, which means stability in ruts, over rough terrain, and in crosswinds, it causes the wheel to feel "heavier" the more you turn it, and on our trucks, it moves the tire forward in the wheel well.
*edit* Thanks for posting that Remmy, I did indeed have the camber numbers wrong in my older post.
-Sean
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I am sure your shop is wrong and Camburg is right.
Thanks! I'll go talk to Big-O and get this worked out. I've been working with John's 4x4 off Arapahoe.
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You're shop is wrong. Some dude working in the garage is not an engineer nor can he tell from looking at the arm that the geometry is off. Camburg has sold hundreds and hundreds of these.
Have you asked Camburg for settings?
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that is what I said. wth
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wth yerself, i had the drop on the both of youse by hours :lol:
To be honest, I'm not sure that John's 4x4 really has the knowledge and experience to be doing that kind of modification and final adjustment on our trucks. Their target market seems to be more domestic trucks and Jeep owners, and mostly bolt-on...not that I'm talking them down, just saying that you're better off taking this sort of thing to a shop with a different body of experience.
Talk to Jacob if you need more stuff like this in the future, and don't want to DIY...he can do it through Boulder Toyota, where he's a tech (I don't know what level, but he is very competent), and there are a few other guys around the Front Range who are Master Techs and are also familiar with this kind of thing.
When you're ready to wheel, come say hi at cottora.org, there's a forum link on the links page. Plenty of us there to help you help yourself, if you want to save a few bucks on installation and get to know your truck.
To be honest, I'm not sure that John's 4x4 really has the knowledge and experience to be doing that kind of modification and final adjustment on our trucks. Their target market seems to be more domestic trucks and Jeep owners, and mostly bolt-on...not that I'm talking them down, just saying that you're better off taking this sort of thing to a shop with a different body of experience.
Talk to Jacob if you need more stuff like this in the future, and don't want to DIY...he can do it through Boulder Toyota, where he's a tech (I don't know what level, but he is very competent), and there are a few other guys around the Front Range who are Master Techs and are also familiar with this kind of thing.
When you're ready to wheel, come say hi at cottora.org, there's a forum link on the links page. Plenty of us there to help you help yourself, if you want to save a few bucks on installation and get to know your truck.
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Hey guys, so I have been looking around for alignment specs for camburgs, I installed a "three inch kit" (front struts and rear AAL) thats currently giving me about 4.5" in the front with stock UCA's but my spindles are catching my coils.
I ordered the Burgs and they will be there in a few days, I was reading the install instructions from camburg:
http://www.camburg.com/new/pdfs/00_Tundra_1.00_uca.pdf
Which simply states :
Correct me if I am wrong, I am jsut trying to find out before I take it in to get aligned next week.
Thanks
Chad
I ordered the Burgs and they will be there in a few days, I was reading the install instructions from camburg:
http://www.camburg.com/new/pdfs/00_Tundra_1.00_uca.pdf
Which simply states :
I am thinking I will try DJ specs, but that PDF doesnt specify what size lift the specs are for and from what I have gathered that will also change your required alignment specs?
Correct me if I am wrong, I am jsut trying to find out before I take it in to get aligned next week.
Thanks
Chad
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Read all of DJ's posts on alignment.
Reading between the lines of his posts and Camburg's instructions, they are recommending that caster (castor oil, alignment caster) be set initially higher than the stock recommendation, then using only one cam (almost certainly the front cam) to adjust camber...if caster is still above spec when camber is set, the alignment can be shifted a bit, then repeat the camber adjustment, with caster as the dependent measurement...without the CAMM console DJ mentions, it'll be an iterative process, and the tech absolutely must understand the alignment system on the truck, or it will only be frustrating.
If you want the full explanation, I'm willing to write it up (again, maybe? Search around...maybe I've written it before), if DJ doesn't get to it first.
-Sean
Reading between the lines of his posts and Camburg's instructions, they are recommending that caster (castor oil, alignment caster) be set initially higher than the stock recommendation, then using only one cam (almost certainly the front cam) to adjust camber...if caster is still above spec when camber is set, the alignment can be shifted a bit, then repeat the camber adjustment, with caster as the dependent measurement...without the CAMM console DJ mentions, it'll be an iterative process, and the tech absolutely must understand the alignment system on the truck, or it will only be frustrating.
If you want the full explanation, I'm willing to write it up (again, maybe? Search around...maybe I've written it before), if DJ doesn't get to it first.
-Sean
Sean's exactly correct.
You want to set caster first, ideally to at least 2.0-2.4 degrees, if you can get it to that. Then adjust camber to .20-.25 positive. Finally, set toe dead on, which is just barely positive, i.e. 0.04-0.06 (0.08-0.12 total toe). The reason toe is set slightly positive is that at highways speeds, an independent front suspension's (IFS) geometry has a tendency to flex and pull toe slightly negative, so running down the road, you are at a neutral toe setting, minimizing the potential for tire wear.
A strong caster number is not necessarily a bad thing. Some sport sedans have caster as high as 9-10 degrees. I currently have mine at 1.8 degrees (done by my local Toyota dealer) with the Bilstein 5100s at their highest setting on stock UCAs. I wouldn't mind it higher. If I run into an alignment tech I trusted and who knew the CAMM screen well, I'd pay to have him tweak my alignment settings even more.
Gotcha.
Try this:The key idea to understand therein is:
The truth is that, in the case of the Tundra, both cams adjust camber and both cams adjust caster.
That post explains why this is so.
The "CAMM" display of Hunter alignment consoles makes adjusting camber and caster on the Tundra quite easy. Without it, the process is slow, frustrating, and usually produces a poor alignment.
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Thanks for the quick help guys, I now thing I understand how alignment works, The only thing I am still unsure of is how/where DJ came up with his recommended cambEr settings. I understand how it works and all, just not where he got the numbers from other then being upper end of Toyota recommended. These specs are what I plan to go with, and once I make sure the shop has a hunter CAMM machine with a knowledgable tech it should be easy enough. Just unsure how we got that set of numbers?
Thanks again for the help, and explaining how this all works. I am used to track and weight balance on helicopter blades, not wheel alignment on trucks. But I am learning.
YoTAToY
Thanks again for the help, and explaining how this all works. I am used to track and weight balance on helicopter blades, not wheel alignment on trucks. But I am learning.
YoTAToY
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