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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Misfire when cold mystery-- SOLVED

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I have a 2007 5.7 limited 62000 miles.


The Toyota Tundra is throwing a P0302 code. Misfire on cylinder 2. It started this summer a few times. Now it does it every time the truck has been sitting for more then 6-8 hours. Pretty much when the engine gets cold.
Runs rough and eventually the ECU will shutdown the cylinder. Shown by the blinking engine light. If I shut it down and restart after she warms up she will run fine.


What I've tried.
Moving the spark plug from 2 to 4
Moving the coil from 2 to 4
Moving the fuel injector from 2 to 4
Ran Seafoam through the fuel and ran multiple tanks.


Nothing worked.... still get the P0302 when I expecting the code to switch to P0304




I checked resistance on the fuel injector and compered it with another both were 12 ohms.


I check the compression and compared 2 to 4 and both were the same.


I broke down and took it to my mechanic and after 3 days said he can't fix I have to take it to the dealer.


Its currently at the dealer and they have spent 3 days on it. They called yesterday and said they tried replacing all the coils. They think it is electric problem. Charging me 3 hours labor to trace wires.


Anyone have any input or suggestions. I'm at a loss on this.

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It has been two weeks and the truck is still at the dealer. They said that their master tech has tried everything that the Toyota flowcharts says to do for a misfire.


I was told 2 days ago that they opened a case with Toyota to see if they can figure out the issue.
I'm getting nervous that they will not figure out the issue. In addition, it's kind of hard to have a good Christmas knowing I could have a huge bill looming.


Has anyone else had a dealer stumped like this before? Do you think Toyota Corp will try to make it right if they can't figure it out? I'm not sure what my alternatives are since they are the only dealer in my area.
 

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In my mind, it seems like something going (or gone) bad in the ECU.
Not a cheap fix, if that's indeed the problem, unless you can convince them it's emissions-related.

Steve
 

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?... Do you think Toyota Corp will try to make it right if they can't figure it out? .......
Unless you are under a Platinum warranty plan, there is nothing for Toyota to make right on a 7 year old vehicle that is out of the basic warranty coverage.

Given enough time and money, this problem can be figured out. The issue is who will be picking up the tab? At this point, unless you got the Platinum coverage, anything Toyota gives you will be a courtesy and not a requirement.




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After thinking on it a bit more, the wiring harness could be the culprit as well.
Had any mice living under the hood lately?
They love the taste of Tundra wire insulation.

Steve
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Unless you are under a Platinum warranty plan, there is nothing for Toyota to make right on a 7 year old vehicle that is out of the basic warranty coverage.

Given enough time and money, this problem can be figured out. The issue is who will be picking up the tab? At this point, unless you got the Platinum coverage, anything Toyota gives you will be a courtesy and not a requirement.




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I'm not under warranty.
What I need is Toyota to tell me what the problem is, so it can be fixed. As it stands they are baffled as to what the problem is. If the dealer can't fix it what alternatives to I have to get the truck fixed? Yes -- time and money can fix it, but I'm don't want to throw money at a fix that does not work. I expect to pay dealer prices for the repairs because they are the experts.

When I say Toyota to make it right. It this it is more then a courtesy to stand behind their products. 6 years and 60,000 miles is not much in the life of the vehicle. This is my 6th Toyota because of the quality and reliability of the product and I would hope that they would want to keep that integrity.

With all that said I'm not saying the dealer is not helping me, they have been great. I'm asking the "what if" scenario. I'm stressing about this because my hands are tied and I'm worried the dealer is going to send me on my way and say sorry we can't help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
After thinking on it a bit more, the wiring harness could be the culprit as well.
Had any mice living under the hood lately?
They love the taste of Tundra wire insulation.

Steve
That is exactly what the dealer first expected, so they traced wires and verified it is not the wiring harness. They charged me $400 labor to do that. No Joy.
 

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I'm not under warranty.
What I need is Toyota to tell me what the problem is, so it can be fixed. As it stands they are baffled as to what the problem is. If the dealer can't fix it what alternatives to I have to get the truck fixed? Yes -- time and money can fix it, but I'm don't want to throw money at a fix that does not work. I expect to pay dealer prices for the repairs because they are the experts.

When I say Toyota to make it right. It this it is more then a courtesy to stand behind their products. 6 years and 60,000 miles is not much in the life of the vehicle. This is my 6th Toyota because of the quality and reliability of the product and I would hope that they would want to keep that integrity.

With all that said I'm not saying the dealer is not helping me, they have been great. I'm asking the "what if" scenario. I'm stressing about this because my hands are tied and I'm worried the dealer is going to send me on my way and say sorry we can't help.
First of all, I fully understand your plight and not insensitive to it, just trying to put out a dose of reality.

Toyota standing behind their product is what the warranty and warranty period is. Like anything made by man, there is going to be the law of averages with people both on the high side and low side and in your case, you are on the low side of the average unfortunately. People can make your same argument at 7/70K, 8/80K and beyond that a truck should work but at some point, a manufacturer has to say this is where our published liability ends and that is what the basic 6/60K is. That is why they offer the extended Gold and Platinum warranties and if decline by the buyer, well then the buyer made a informed decision to assume the liability beyond the 6/60K.

Nobody wants to "that guy" who has issues like this, but unfortunately, you got the short straw and have to be "that guy". There is an emotional aspect and a legal aspect to this. Legally, Toyota has met their obligations in good faith, your expectations and demands for financial satisfaction are an emotional issue to you. Arguing on emotions that Toyota should do this or that is not going to get you anything. As mentioned, if Toyota or the dealer does offer any relief, it is a courtesy and not an entitlement due to your expectations.

That being said, your electrical issue is unfortunately can be very difficult to diagnose. I work aircraft with complex electrical and electronic systems with like issues of intermittent problems. There is no way out of it sometimes that it will be labor extensive to what may in the end be a simple issue. Wish you luck and hope it works out for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
First of all, I fully understand your plight and not insensitive to it, just trying to put out a dose of reality.

Toyota standing behind their product is what the warranty and warranty period is. Like anything made by man, there is going to be the law of averages with people both on the high side and low side and in your case, you are on the low side of the average unfortunately. People can make your same argument at 7/70K, 8/80K and beyond that a truck should work but at some point, a manufacturer has to say this is where our published liability ends and that is what the basic 6/60K is. That is why they offer the extended Gold and Platinum warranties and if decline by the buyer, well then the buyer made a informed decision to assume the liability beyond the 6/60K.

Nobody wants to "that guy" who has issues like this, but unfortunately, you got the short straw and have to be "that guy". There is an emotional aspect and a legal aspect to this. Legally, Toyota has met their obligations in good faith, your expectations and demands for financial satisfaction are an emotional issue to you. Arguing on emotions that Toyota should do this or that is not going to get you anything. As mentioned, if Toyota or the dealer does offer any relief, it is a courtesy and not an entitlement due to your expectations.

That being said, your electrical issue is unfortunately can be very difficult to diagnose. I work aircraft with complex electrical and electronic systems with like issues of intermittent problems. There is no way out of it sometimes that it will be labor extensive to what may in the end be a simple issue. Wish you luck and hope it works out for you.
Yeah -- you are right no one likes to be "that guy". Thanks for the good luck wishes and I'll keep everyone posted on how it turns out.
 

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I just got my 07 back from the dealer. 2 chewed harnesses and $1200 later we are back in business. Merry Christmas to me. Now to go re-set the traps in the garage.

Good Luck
 

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Ok, wait a sec. You said "If I shut it down and restart after she warms up she will run fine." So if its an electrical problem it is not (probably) going to *magically* get better when its warm. Just off the top of my head I'd dig into to the valves and see if one is getting stuck slightly and delaying its motion. I dunno, you might try and remove the valve cover and see if you hear any funny noise when the rig is cold. Just seems like a mechanical thing rather than an electrical thing. Or a fuel flow thing. But when its warm, why would that get better by itself. I'll just say its not electrical.
 

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Ok, wait a sec. You said "If I shut it down and restart after she warms up she will run fine." So if its an electrical problem it is not (probably) going to *magically* get better when its warm. Just off the top of my head I'd dig into to the valves and see if one is getting stuck slightly and delaying its motion. I dunno, you might try and remove the valve cover and see if you hear any funny noise when the rig is cold. Just seems like a mechanical thing rather than an electrical thing. Or a fuel flow thing. But when its warm, why would that get better by itself. I'll just say its not electrical.
Not discounting your mechanical theory as anything is possible at the moment, but temperature extremes from cold to hot can affect electrical and electronic circuits very much.

At a cold state, metal conductor pins, contacts and electrical solder joints can contract and if your contacts or have cold solder joint on a circuit board, that can cause high resistance or direct opens very easily. Once warmed up, the marginal contacts and solder joints can then make a better connection due to thermal expansion. We maybe only talking thousandths of a inch with the contractions and expansions of these contacts and solder joints, but that can make a Hugh difference sometime.




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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Ok, wait a sec. You said "If I shut it down and restart after she warms up she will run fine." So if its an electrical problem it is not (probably) going to *magically* get better when its warm. Just off the top of my head I'd dig into to the valves and see if one is getting stuck slightly and delaying its motion. I dunno, you might try and remove the valve cover and see if you hear any funny noise when the rig is cold. Just seems like a mechanical thing rather than an electrical thing. Or a fuel flow thing. But when its warm, why would that get better by itself. I'll just say its not electrical.
I stopped by the dealership yesterday. They are still have no reason for the misfire. He told me they opened a ticket with Toyota and got back a laundry list of things to look at. They went though them all and everything checked out perfect. Said nothing is even out close to being out of range. I asked if they had checked the valves and he stated that they had pulled the valve covers off and everything looked good. Said they even swapped out the ECU with no change.

It's weird to wish they would find something wrong with my truck.

The mystery continues... Thanks for everyone's input.
 

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I realize this is a (very) long shot and under normal circumstances not worth considering, because it doesn’t really fit the profile of your symptoms, especially when you can shut off the engine when warm and things are normal upon restart.
But if those techs are really checking everything on the list of possible failures (list below):

P0302:
Open or short in engine wire harness
Connector connection
Vacuum hose connections
Ignition system
Injector
Fuel pressure
Mass Air Flow(MAF) meter
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor
Compression pressure
Valve clearance
Valve timing
PCV valve and hose
PCV hose connections
Air induction system
ECM

then mechanical is about all that’s left, and because no matter what is done, the problem stays with cylinder 2, here is my enormous S.W.A.G. for today…
What about the camshaft or crankshaft position sensors or their associated inductors?

On the 5.7L engine, the Crankshaft Position Sensor is at the rear of the engine on driver’s side, and the Camshaft Position Sensor is toward the front of the engine on the driver’s side, just behind the Coolant Temp Sensor.

--
Or it could be something as simple as a partial obstruction in the fuel rail at cylinder 2 injector.
--

Steve
 

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Or it could be something as simple as a partial obstruction in the fuel rail at cylinder 2 injector.
Steve
Thats what I would vote for. Good thinking Steve
 

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Not discounting your mechanical theory as anything is possible at the moment, but temperature extremes from cold to hot can affect electrical and electronic circuits very much.

At a cold state, metal conductor pins, contacts and electrical solder joints can contract and if your contacts or have cold solder joint on a circuit board, that can cause high resistance or direct opens very easily. Once warmed up, the marginal contacts and solder joints can then make a better connection due to thermal expansion. We maybe only talking thousandths of a inch with the contractions and expansions of these contacts and solder joints, but that can make a Hugh difference sometime.
You are correct Hooty...however the OP is in Huntsville AL. Probably not cold enough to bugger up his electrical stuff. And I'd guess that this thermal expansion / contraction would quickly destroy the solder joints, etc. I still vote for a fuel flow issue.
 

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You are correct Hooty...however the OP is in Huntsville AL. Probably not cold enough to bugger up his electrical stuff. And I'd guess that this thermal expansion / contraction would quickly destroy the solder joints, etc. I still vote for a fuel flow issue.
When I talk of thermal expansion/contraction, it is not just the outside ambient atmospheric temperature, but also the cooling and heating cycles under the hood which are more severe. As to solder joints, correct done solder joints will not give issue generally, it "cold" solder joints that will give the issue over time.

Irregardless, this issue the OP has may come down to fuel assuming the dealership correctly determined what it is not with their other checks and troubleshooting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Stevj - I'm going to pass along the fuel flow idea to the tech. I think they looking for any good ideas at this point. Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I called the dealer yesterday and was told that they may have found something. Said they found a compression variance on the cylinder. They are thinking it could be a bad spring on the exhaust valve.

I would think that if that was the case, my problem would not go away when the truck warmed up. Thoughts?
 

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Have they preformed a leak down test on the cylinder in question? If not do one hot and one cold. You could have a valve seal issue that seals up when the engine warms up.
 

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I called the dealer yesterday and was told that they may have found something. Said they found a compression variance on the cylinder. They are thinking it could be a bad spring on the exhaust valve.

I would think that if that was the case, my problem would not go away when the truck warmed up. Thoughts?
I think you are correct, but it may be best not to rule out anything unless it just doesn’t pass the common sense test.
From the information you’ve given, it seems to me electrical, except for wiring harness integrity to cylinder 2 injector and spark coil pack, has been eliminated. Simple continuity checks won’t do it: the Techstream must be used to show and verify injector pulse time and coil pack feedback while the engine is running and exhibiting the symptoms, as at cold start.
Once those are eliminated with certainty, that leaves only mechanical issues associated with cylinder 2 operation.
You stated you swapped plugs between cylinders 2 and 4, but didn’t mention their condition or whether you swapped them back to their original location.
Did you read the condition of those plugs when you swapped them, and did they appear to indicate normal cylinder operation?


Have they preformed a leak down test on the cylinder in question? If not do one hot and one cold. You could have a valve seal issue that seals up when the engine warms up.
If by valve seal, you mean valve seat, then his engine operation should smooth out as the engine warmed, and not wait until a restart after warmup.
If you mean valve seal, I would think oil leaking by in sufficient quantity to affect drivability (as in plug fouling) would also start to show a fault from the downstream O2 sensor on that engine bank starting to report reduced catalytic converter efficiency, as oil slowly coated the converter innards over time and rendered it useless.

Steve
 
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